So India lost.
Sigh.
Of course we'll have the customary post-mortem all over the world. And why not.
And while we are all aware who goofed up big time (yes, yes MSD), a telling statistic from the (somewhat) middle overs of the game:
Gambhir Out at 4.2 Ov, Score= 3-29
Dhoni Out at 12.1 Ov, Score= 4-66
!?!?!
Meaning, in around 50 deliveries, 37 runs were scored!!!
Yes!
In a T20 match.
After playing the IPL for the last like, 9000 days.
And MSD of course had a SR of 47.82.
!?!?!
All you can say to the West Indies, I guess is: Bravo!
P.S. The only bright spot? The Prince.
Taking Stock
1 hour ago
43 Maidens bowled!!:
Leela
Call me crazy, didn't think MSD's batting was the issue. Yeah I like to think beyond the very obvious. He came in when India had lost 3 early wickets. Had to consolidate - had no choice. Ok he probably could've scored another 5/6 runs..
His choice of the bowling was my issue. He said categorically he didn't fancy Ishant in the slog overs, and yet he bowled the 17'th over. Then the scenario was 39 of 4 overs.. 16 runs and game over.
That over should have been bowled by Bhajji, then Ojha - 18th. Then Zaheer , and then last over, either Ishant/Irfan
For me that's where the match was lost.
Anyways, rest of matches would pan this way :-)
WI lose to S Af, Ind beat Eng, Eng beat WI, Ind lose to S Af. Meaning S Af would be on 9, and the rest on two points.. Comes down to NRR.
Yeah I know yesterday I wanted/wished for S Af to get into trouble for their lax batting. After today's WI/Ind performance, opinions changed :-)
TG,
Agreed he needed to consolidate; however, 8 overs is a long time in T20. And when you do use that many overs, you better make up for it later. Like Yuvi did.
I did not like his bowling changes either. He seems to open with Irfan/PK everytime one of them is playing because he knows batsmen hit them out later. And he brings in Ishant at a weird time.
If Ishant is the strike bowler, he must be given at least a 1-over opening spell, else drop him!
And get RP.
Yeah.. hope the NRR bails India out later.
:-(
Leela
He was unlucky in the shot he got out to ! A meter either way, and it most likely would have been a six.
As for Yuvraj - he had the benefit of a dropped catch ! Sure he did do the most he could , but he had the luck in batting that MSD didn't.
Ok - what you reckon. Yusuf Pathan and the rest would have lasted say 10 overs ? i.e. In the assumption that MSD hit out and got out.
Sure - his batting was bad. But if his bowlers had bowled a touch better, 153 would have been defended.
Anyways - I guess everyone's going to be all Protea tomorrow eh :-) If WI wins, then things do get tricky for India..
Fair point, TG.
153 IS in fact, defendable. South Africa defended similar scores all through the tournament, didn't they?
Even in the previous World T20, which we won, we won two of our three must-win games defending 150-odd scores. You cannot expect your batting to fire all cylinders every match. When it doesn't, the bowling has to step up. And it very nearly did. At 39 required of 24, it was anybody's game if we held our nerves.
Can't believe RP didn't play. He would have ambled in and bowl a few cool yorkers to shut the door.
Oh, well. Things just got a little bit interesting :-)
Sharath,
Well we agree on something :-)
The reason RP isn't playing is for the very fact that MSD doesn't trust the batting and is ' beefing' it with Irfan as well. It's a tough call.
I guess also RP in the warm up's didn't quite get his yorkers on target.
Yep - the bowlers let MSD down today. This is the thing with MSD. Anything he does/doesn't is always going to be an issue. Guess MSD is the next SRT !
Well, I've been asking for S Af to win all 3 games.. In more hindsight, would prefer WI to win all three and make the Ind- S Af game a virtual knock out.
In that scenario, my punt will be on India to win and get into the semis :-) For all their teamwork, S Af is a team ripe for taking for a maverick like Yuvraj or Yusuf.
Besides Steyn - who can also be hit, their bowling is nothing flash.
Parnell is young and under pressure is bound to collapse. Botha and Roeloef are useless spinners who can EASILY be hit all over. Less said about Albie Morkel as a bowler the better.
Oops Sharath
In the last T20 WC super 8's.
India lost chasing to NZ, Beat Eng ( Yuvi and his sixes match) and then beat S Af defending 150 in Durban and knocking S Af out in the process.
Beat Aus in semi defending 180 odd and Pak in final defending 157.
TG,
True 153 is defendible. However the bowling has been not that great leading up to the Super 8s.
It was always going to be the batsmen who setup the game for India.
Sure Yuvi had the benefit of a dropped catch and I also agree its not MSD's fault alone, because 3 wkts had fallen prior to him. However, 30 more runs, and would've been a better match.
Anyway, I guess the next matches get interesting now.
TG,
Yup, I was referring to the SA game - it was a virtual quarter-final, and if memory serves me right, RP featured prominently with the ball. I remember him taking out Graeme Smith with a lovely out-swinger in the first over.
And then there was Rohit Sharma's sliding direct-hit from short-cover to send Justin Kemp back. I think he got a fifty in that game too.
And of course, the final against Pakistan - Irfan, I think, took three? Gautam Gambhir got runs, I remember.
Looks like it's shaping up to be a similar sort of tournament - but with what result? :-/
TG/Sharath,
Yup RP was dismal in the warm-ups and Dhoni uses a below-par IP because he at least can bat.
However, it just doesn't seem right.
(No, I dunno what the solution is.)
:-(
Yup, he is turning into a bit of an SRT. Last two years he leads India to stunning victories and now the knives are out.
Anything he does/doesn't is always going to be an issue.
True.
:-(
How about going lateral ? Drop Gambhir, get in either Ravindra Jadeja or RP or even Praveen Kumar - make the choice depending on the condition.
My choice of the three would be Jadeja. More than useful bat, an excellent fielder and can chip in with an over or two !
Open with Yusuf and Rohit. Simple - go bang from the start.
So does this team look/read good ?
YP/RS/SR/YS/MSD/RJ/IP/HS/ZK/IS/PO
Coming to think of it - I like the look of the above squad!
TG,
Don't you know? Indian's don't do lateral :-)
I suspect the team for the next game will be the same as today's with Ishant replaced by RP.
Ah, Indians without the apostrophe! Grammar errors are so embarrassing! Just as much as spelling errors...
Oh come on, you can't defend Dhoni for his performance today.
In a partnership of 37 off 47 deliveries Dhoni scored 11 odd 23, Yuvraj scored 26 off 24. To say Yuvraj "made up" for a slow start would be wrong. More importantly, he looked comfortable at the crease but Dhoni didn't.
Missing a key run out chance by not collecting a throw? You can't win if you field so badly and Dhoni was guilty of bad fielding just as most of his teammates.
He'd already said he didn't like bowling Ishant at the death. So with 4 overs left and Zaheer having 2 up his sleeve, you'd have thought the captain would go to his number one bowler in the 18th if not the 17th over. Instead, he tossed the ball to Ishant and Harbhajan, neither of whom has ever bowled well when the batsmen have attacked them. Result: 31 off 12 deliveries.
But the most disappointing thing was Dhoni not saying a word about his mistakes at the end of the game. He should've just said the loss was on him. The death bowling was pathetic again, but as the leader he should have taken it all on himself. That's what great captains do.
Lol, so now there's talk of dropping Gambhir? How does that take care of our death bowling again?
It wouldn't have mattered had it been RP Singh or Praveen Kumar, because NONE of our bowlers has bowled well at the death. It's 5 games in a row now that they've sucked ass. You might as well bowl Gambhir if you can't find the block-hole.
Er, I thought Dhoni DID say it was sort-of his fault for "not having stayed there for the slog".
But these things are only clear in hindsight. For instance, Joginder Sharma for the last over? He would have been castigated if that had gone wrong. At least he went for a 'proper' bowler this time :-)
Nah, it's not the captain. It's the bowlers. If you're in the side to be a bowler, you have to take responsibility for not being able to defend 39 of the last four overs.
But then, you have to give Bravo some of the credit too, I suppose.
I agree with you on one point though, Mahe. 11 off 23 is unpardonable in a T20, no matter what the situation. You simply CANNOT bat at poorer than run-a-ball in this format.
Mahek
Like I said, it's lateral thinking. In any event - what's wrong in dropping Gambhir. He hasn't set the tournament alight !
Sure it won't do the death bowling any good. But maybe by going bang bang at the top - India would have a score to defend that can ' digest' tripe death bowling :-)
Hey, you a Barca fan right ? How did Barca win the trioka of trophies ? Not by having a great defence, but rather having an attacking mindset.
For Barca in football, replace with India here.
Sharath,
Every batsman knows he's one ball away from getting out. There is no guarantee in this game. So when you know that you can't afford to bat at a strike rate of less than 50. It's not that he wasn't trying to get singles, he was simply incapable of. The problem was not that he couldn't stay till the slog, the problem was he played too many dot balls.
Regarding the Joginder incident, we were one wicket away from winning the game. In this case, the Windies had 7 wickets in hand. Big difference, no?
Sure the bowlers didn't bowl well, but what did that have to do with Dhoni fluffing a throw that could've sent Bravo back? If you're a leader you can't just be a leader when the team is doing well. You have to take responsibility when you're losing, especially when you've played such a big part in the loss.
I don't have anything against Dhoni, I think he's the best man to lead the team right now but that doesn't make him inscrutable.
Mahek,
When I said Yuvi made up for the slow start, I meant that 8-over period.
You are right, he always looked comfortable, unlike MSD.
Anyway, to me the bowlers have been a problem throughout and we need the batsmen to bail em out
OR
someone to fix the bowling issues ASAP.
And yes, the bowling changes were odd.
I missed the presentation ceremony.
:-|
Oh, he fluffed a run-out chance? I didn't know...
But I am on your side, Mahek. Batting at 50% strike-rate, at ANY situation in this format, is inexcusable.
I was just making a point that Ishant turned out to be a bad choice only in hindsight.
TG,
Barca had the best defense in the league. While they scored so many goals, they had a large number of clean sheets. To put it into perspective, they conceded just two goals in their last five champions league games. Who were they playing? Bayern Munich, Chelsea, Manchester United.
While Gambhir hasn't set the tournament alight, he's done nothing to warrant being dropped. Bear in mind he's the only specialist opener in the side. It's one thing to go lateral, it's another to go off-track.
Had Sehwag been fit, I would have considered playing two spinners and two medium pacers and letting Yusuf Pathan bowl at the start and the end of the innings. I quite like Jadeja, but he doesn't have shots all around the wicket like Yuvraj, Raina or Sharma.
Sharath,
Yes he fluffed out a run-out chance. I am not too angry about that because these things happen sometimes.
Its the SR that bothers me more.
And the bowling/bowling changes.
It was a run out chance where there could've been a dismissal at either end. It was THAT easy had he collected the ball.
Ishant was never going to deliver at the death. The captain himself has said he doesn't fancy bowling Ishant during the powerplays or at the end, so why would he bowl Ishant ahead of Zaheer, Irfan or Harbhajan (Not that any of them have bowled well at the death)?
I can make peace with bad bowling or batting because Dhoni doesn't have direct control over it. But he has complete control over his own fielding, and the one thing that India did well in the last World Cup was to field. It's such an ignored and underrated aspect among Indians. You just have to see how insanely brilliant South Africa and New Zealand are. Come to think of it, we've been seeing it for decades but we haven't learnt.
Leela
Apologies going ' footy' here :-)
Mahek - Barca plays only one way. That is to Attack. Starting with Alves in the flank to, Xavi/Iniesta to the trioka of Messi/Henry and Eto'O. Attack all the way - cuz with Valdes in goal. It's no point trying to defend :-)
You mention those three games - Bayern Munich ( yeah they were up 4- 0 after the first leg ! and how was that possible ? by attacking !)
Against Chelsea - ahem let's not go into THAT match shall we :-)
And in the final. The Eto'O goal in the 9'th minute changed Barca. Again Attacking.
Point is - Barca knows more often than NOT their attacking mindset would bail them out and it did !
Point from that to cricket is simple - if your bowling ( read defence) is weak get enough to buffer that i.e. go bang from the start. Either Gambhir also has to go bang, or get a bloke like Yusuf at the top.
Probably this could have been tried earlier - but with MSD mostly having the luck on his side, who knows this might the trick he needs to do !
Mahek,
Yes he missed a chance. It happens.
(Overall, yes our fielding can definitely improve.)
Yes he does not have control over the bowling, but definitely the bowling changes.
Ishant has been consistently doing badly at death. He should be used in the opening overs.
Have to add, amidst all this negativity, one of the reasons the Windies won was how they handled Ojha. They were really good. Negated all the middle-over breaks that India have been getting in the recent past with spinners.
And yes they were the better team.
I'll leave you to your opinion about Barca's defense. They're an attack-minded team as well but they don't ignore their defense. What you're suggesting is something Real do.
ha ha Mr 47.82 % lost it for India. Granted you need to consolidate - still, 11/23?
Sourav Ganguly 69/112 deliveries in WC 2007 - Selfish and lost the match for India
Dhoni - 47.82% in T20, yes, not even ODI = consolidation, team player
Raj,
:-)
Raj,
The first time I read your comment, for some reason I did not read what you wrote about Ganguly. My bad.
A quick response.
I notice that if DK is not selected, you blame Dhoni.
If Badri is not selected, you blame Dhoni.
If (and I am guessing here) the media called Ganguly selfish for his WC2007 performance, you blame Dhoni.
I agree Dhoni has flaws (like everyone else), but surely he is not responsible for everything that ails Indian cricket- past, present, and future?
Okay folks, so who is today's match ka mujrim?
Yeah, Dhoni is the root of all EVIL, Leela. See, he has possessed you, too :-)
Mahek,
Match ka Mujrim
:-)
Well now that a few hours have passed, I feel the following did India:
1. 3 Quick wickets at the top.
In the past two years the reason why India have done well is the opening partnership. In this game we did not have that.
2. Dhoni's scratchy form.
3. BAD bowling. Really we don't seem to have decent death bowlers.
4. Bad fielding. All around.
This was one of the saving graces in the last tournament.
5. Bowling changes. Again, if last tournament the changes worked, this time Dhoni overthought/had a brain fade.
India was able to defend lower totals in the previous tournament because the fielding changes worked.
Raj,
Er.. OK(?)
:-/
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same...
(Rudyard Kipling)
I have been reading the comments with a wry smile on my face.
I will use a "lateral" analogy to help out here. In MLB, teams play a 162 game schedule, and the most wins any team has ever had in a season is about 120 odd. Which means that the winning-est team of all-time still lost about 40 games or 25% of the time. Teams lose and win all the time. The better teams are those that minimize the times they lose.
For years our Indian team has been an average team that occasionally overachieves spectacularly. In the last couple of years they have begun transitioning towards becoming a great team that has periodic mis-steps.
There will be days like this when things work or do not work. As MSD repeatedly says, look at the big picture. One common thread to all the comments is the fact the everyone EXPECTED India to win (as opposed to HOPED that India would win as was the case just 2 years ago). Isn't that a heartening development that should be relished?
Knee-jerk reactions will only exacerbate the issue. Simply because India lost a match does not mean we change 3 or 4 players or modify left, right, and center. Give the growth some breathing space.
I will tell you what I mean. For days now poor Leela has been subjected to posts that have slammed MSD's #3 batting spot. Today when he comes at #5, none of the the #3 naysayers come out and talk about how his #5 batting was even more choppy. To her immense credit, she did not even raise the point that had the MSD of recent past been at #3, we probably would have had 8-9 wickets in hand for the last 10 overs (note I said probably)as opposed to being 4-5 down with just the bowlers to come. The man just cannot win for winning, can he?
You can sit back and enjoy the moonlight or choose to slam it by saying that the moon is pockmarked and is only reflecting someone else's glory. Just remember that the next time you miss the moon, you were the one that slammed it in the first place.
Jaunty,
I can't speak for everyone but I don't expect us to win every time. What I do expect is the players' executing their skills, which means bowlers not bowling full-tosses and length deliveries at the death. It also means Dhoni not scratching around for 11 off 23. He can say he wanted to consolidate, but the fact remains he couldn't execute his plan to do so.
I don't think there should be any changes to the side. But that doesn't mean I can't comment on something the team hasn't done well game after effing game. It's 5 games in a row now that the bowlers have hemorrhaged runs at the death. And it's been ages since Dhoni played a decent innings in twenty20. I'd mentioned after the game against Bangladesh that he's so out of form that he'd struggle no matter where he bats. The onus is on him to turn it around.
Thanks JQ for those kind words.
Have been fighting a few fires since the past few days; an unexpected comment like that helps.
Mahek,
I agree since this tournament started, Dhoni seems out of touch. However, his form in the recent past hasn't been that bad.
Some stats from the IPL:
Yuvraj 14 14 340 58* 115.64
MS Dhoni 14 13 332 58* 127.20
SK Raina 14 14 434 98 140.90
R Sharma 16 16 362 52 114.92
G Gambhir 15 15 286 71* 102.87
I am not listing the avg, because that gets inflated with a "not out".
Sure stats don't give us all the scenarios, but some info can be gleaned.
And our pace bowling has been consistently bad. The middle-overs have been the saviours with the spinners (specifically Ojha) tying up the proceedings. Today that did not happen. Coupled with bad fielding. We lost.
I guess I should've been more clear. I was talking about international cricket. While the IPL is quite competitive the cricket is not of the same level as international matches so I'd always take those numbers with a pinch of salt.
Saying Dhoni hasn't had the best of time with the bat isn't the same as saying he should be replaced. Sure, some people would go to that extreme because they have an axe to grind. I suggest you watch a match at a pan shop in India. You'd be really amused :)
Mahek,
Agree that IPL is not the same as an int'l match. However, those were the last set of t20s played... so I put up the stats.
And I do agree they don't give all the scenarios.
:-)
P.S. Yup, this time when I visit India, maybe will go to a paan shop and watch. lol.
Not a word anywhere about the way Gayle was contained and dismissed ... though we did lose it literally after that.
Am sure that if India had won, even if off the last over, there would have been paeans everywhere on the intelligent captaincy and bowling changes during our PP overs
Hi all,
great comments all around by Leela, good Ol' TG, Mahek , Raj and the rest!
I think in all this commotion, we're forgetting a key ingredient - that is - WI just OUTPLAYED us in crucial aspects.
Edwards was red hot with his speed and got key wickets up front, and also yuvi when he could have added about 15 runs more in the last 2-3. Bravo with some admirable support, and his batting just took it away from us. Other than some abysmal bowling from us, he took maximum advantage of it all, and like the commentators beat the dead horse -he was in the ZONE. I don't think the think-tank did much work on him or simmons, and took it a little easy after they worked out Gayle.
I love the barca comparisons TG and Mahek, and I'm a astronomical barca fan. TG, I probably will put it like this - in football typically, teams live and die by a philosophy. Not so in cricket- some players are like that, but not the team as such, which needs to adapt a little according to the conditions.
TG like you suggest going lateral - if India get into such a sticky situation again - say 3 down at 49 or 50 in close to 10 overs, how about sending Bhajji or Zaheer to up the tempo a wee bit, and take the pressure to get the big shots from the other player? Just saying.
My simple suggestions is this: Close Ajit Agarkar 10 times, and you have a playing XI. Actually i take it back. We just need 1 AA.
Actually I take that back too, we just need Ajit Agarkar written at the back of the shirts instead of the player names. That should scare the opposition shitless.
Something is seroisly wrong with MSD.....He's losing it....
PSK,
Welcome to the blog.
:-)
Yup amidst all that discussion, missed that.
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